Why do people dislike the Stockstills?

[ChaosLex]

Honest question because I'm not sure.

It seems like any criticism about PA starts with the Stockstills. Are they that bad at their respective jobs or is there more going on behind the scenes?

Thanks in advance.

[Enjoy Terror]

My impression (and I'm not sure how accurate it is) is that the Stockstills are not particularly good at their respective jobs. Attempts to push them out of the organization have only resulted in reshuffling and made up positions to somehow keep them on payroll. It's unclear to me how they've helped the organization at all; aside from Angelos they are pretty big x-factors over the past 14 years and seem to have Pete's ear for some reason.

[Dipper9]

My impression (and I'm not sure how accurate it is) is that the Stockstills are not particularly good at their respective jobs. Attempts to push them out of the organization have only resulted in reshuffling and made up positions to somehow keep them on payroll. It's unclear to me how they've helped the organization at all; aside from Angelos they are pretty big x-factors over the past 14 years and seem to have Pete's ear for some reason.

For what its worth, and I know this isn't the way to run a successful team, but if I owned a sports franchise, and one of my friends was in that field, I would probably do him a favor and keep him in my organization somewhere as well.

Like I said, its not gonna be a popular post, and I know its just another thing to hate on PA for, but I'd probably do the same thing.

[SammyBirdland]

The most pressing issue I see is that, regardless of whether the Stockstills are competent or not, we're making hiring decisions about them before we have a new GM in place.

[Frobby]

I commend Tony's article from last year, which explains the situation with Dave Stockstill: http://www.orioleshangout.com/blog/tonys-take/144/actions-speak-louder-than-words

More broadly, we have a poor minor league system, and one Stockstill or the other has been in charge of it since 2005. So, it seems like it is time to try something new. I don't lump the two brothers together completely, though, and one could certainly argue that John Stockstill hasn't had enough time as farm director for anyone to say that he isn't taking steps in the right direction.

[Sports Guy]

Because they continue to have important jobs despite getting poor results.

Only in this organization do they continue to keep guys around, FOR YEARS, who consistently get subpar results.

Its just another reason this organization blows.

[Lucky Jim]

Because Terry Crowley isn't around enough to heap blame upon.

[SteveA]

For what its worth, and I know this isn't the way to run a successful team, but if I owned a sports franchise, and one of my friends was in that field, I would probably do him a favor and keep him in my organization somewhere as well.

Like I said, its not gonna be a popular post, and I know its just another thing to hate on PA for, but I'd probably do the same thing.

And if you were successful as a franchise, no one would care.

The bottom line is that we have had 14 straight losing seasons, and our minor league organization is considered one of the poorer ones. ANYONE who has been a part of that for most of those years is at the very least suspect. Maybe such an individual is truly competent but has been overwhelmed by the sea of incompetence around him... but you don't get where we are without a LOT of incompetent people.

At this point, if I hear about ANYBODY who has been in any kind of position that affects player acquisition, scouting, or development for a long period of time, my first reaction is going to be "get rid of them". Even if I know nothing about them? Why? Because as I said, you don't get where we are by having a lot of competent people. Maybe the person in question is the exception but statistically the odds are against it. And even if such a person IS good at their job, the losing culture and expectations of the last 14 years could have affected them as well.

We suck as an organization. No team has gotten fewer wins for its payroll dollar than we have over the last decade. Our local TV viewership is in the bottom 4 of 32 teams in baseball. Our attendance, despite a universally beloved ballpark, is abysmal. Our minor leagues have produced fewer quality major leaguers over the past 30 years than any team in the majors (and the FEW really good ones that it has produced in time were "no-brainer" first round draft picks out of college like Mussina and Olson and Wieters who spent very little time in our farm system, and apparently we botched one of the "no-brainers" in Matusz too).

You name ANYONE who has been involved in scouting, player acquisition, or player development for a significant period of time, and ask me if they should come back... and I will say, no. When you are this bad, change for changes sake is not a bad thing.

[24fps]

Partially they're disliked because, correctly or not, they're the poster boys for PA's alleged cronyism.

[mcgraw238]

My impression (and I'm not sure how accurate it is) is that the Stockstills are not particularly good at their respective jobs. Attempts to push them out of the organization have only resulted in reshuffling and made up positions to somehow keep them on payroll. It's unclear to me how they've helped the organization at all; aside from Angelos they are pretty big x-factors over the past 14 years and seem to have Pete's ear for some reason.

I think we should at least make the effort to separate them as part of the analysis. Dave Stockstill had been with the organization much longer than his brother John as far as pinning the last 14 years on someone. There have been stories about Dave during his tenure with the organization that are not flattering. Frobby linked Tony's article which hits on a few items. John has gotten positive comments from Tony and seems to be pretty respected baseball guy. Sports Guy is correct that results matter though I not sure all the blame should be heaped on these guys (now that Crowley is in a less visible roll); And I know that SG isn't saying these guys are the sole problem as he is consistently clear where the problem starts. Organizational leadership/direction is the real problem that needs to be corrected.

I don't have a problem with securing John on a 2012 contract in a yet to be determined role so long as the next GM is able to able to choose where these resources are allocated. It may not be possible to fill all positions with external hires immediately. Some of the transition may run into next offseason as the new GM evaluates the organization.

[SteveO]

Its really quite simple, people who know baseball (like many on this board) realize that the Orioles development pipeline has performed at a level that could be best called incompetent. When your looking at a team that has had high draft picks for the whole time that Stockstill has been in charge of player development and has produced at the level they have, people are going to demand a change is made. Its about results and those are lacking were the Stockstills are concerned.

Really resigning Stockstill to a deal is a non story IMO. In some ways it makes a lot of sense so long as he does not remain in the position overseeing player development. Regardless of results Stockstill I would imagine has input that could be helpful to whomever does take over this mess.

[Lucky Jim]

Stockstill has been the director of player devleopment for a year. During which time, his goal has been to:

oversee a return to The Oriole Way, the uniform instruction of fundamentals at every level of the system. That philosophy became the foundation of the organization in the 1950s and carried the team through the rest of the century.

http://www.baseballamerica.com/today/prospects/rankings/organization-top-10-prospects/2011/2610869.html

In this, he has been aligned with Buck, and my guess is that his move (to player development), and his contract for another year, are tied to the fact that he and Buck get along and see eye-to-eye. For those of you who want Buck to have control, wouldn't that be a good thing? Problems with players being ready for MLB largely pre-date Stockstill. And, while not determining his position allows a bit of leeway to an incoming GM, it appears to me this has a lot more to do with Buck than with PA's cronyism - his hiring and advancement were under AM, not PA (as with his brother).

It's entirely possible that folks really like what they see from Stockstill in terms of improvements in instruction and oversight in the minors. There's absolutely no reason to blame him for 14 years of losing, nor is frustration and some inability to sort his work from the overall mess a valid grounds for critique of his specific tenure/position. In the end, his retention handcuffs no one and is indicative of nothing.

I'm sure there's a kind of cathartic pleasure in purging the system of everyone whose been tied to it. But at a certain point, wagging your finger at anyone who's ever been identified with Orioles' losing (whether valid or not) and identifying them as symbolic of why we've sucked for so long is an empty exercise. Stockstill is, by all accounts, and Tony's in particular, a good baseball guy, who has instituted some real changes in the past year. We've seen some good signs out of this, even w/ depleted talent. If this is part of Buck's plan to get everyone on the same page, then half of you should be celebrating. At worst, a new GM brings him in, re-assigns him, and picks his brain for a year about the prospects he's been watching grow.

It's clearly not the end of the world.

[Frobby]

Its really quite simple, people who know baseball (like many on this board) realize that the Orioles development pipeline has performed at a level that could be best called incompetent. When your looking at a team that has had high draft picks for the whole time that Stockstill has been in charge of player development and has produced at the level they have, people are going to demand a change is made. Its about results and those are lacking were the Stockstills are concerned.

Really resigning Stockstill to a deal is a non story IMO. In some ways it makes a lot of sense so long as he does not remain in the position overseeing player development. Regardless of results Stockstill I would imagine has input that could be helpful to whomever does take over this mess.

John Stockstill has only been in charge of player development since April 2010. By then, Wieters and Matusz were already in the majors, Rowell was already in Year 3 at Frederick, Snyder was already in Year 2 at Norfolk. And, I don't think you can blame Stockstill for Hobgood's injury issues. There is no apparent problem with Machado's progress so far, and Bundy hasn't played yet. In short, I don't think John Stockstill can be judged at all on the progress of the Orioles' high draft picks. You'd have to judge him on other criteria.

Really, the issue is what has been done to improve player development since April 2010, is it working, and is any improvement sufficient to conclude that Stockstill is the best guy to continue leading that effort?

There have been some changes made under John Stockstill's regime. In 2011, each team had its own hitting coach for the first time, instead of relying on roving instructors. Richie Hebner, who had been hitting coach at Norfolk after a fairly unsuccessful run as Frederick's manager, was sacked. Brad Komminsk, who had been pretty successful as Bowie's manager, became the new Norfolk hitting coach. Gary Kendall was promoted to be Bowie's manager. Alan Dunn, who had been the Orioles' bullpen coach under Dave Trembley, was appointed as minor league pitching coordinator, but unfortunately, he jumped ship in June to become the pitching coach at LSU. I don't know who fulfilled that function after Dunn left.

Those are some coaching personnel moves; I have no idea what changes may have been made in how the Orioles develop their minor leaguers. Tony has pointed out that John Stockstill is more aggressive than his brother in promoting players to higher levels during the season; that could be good or bad. In terms of what the players are taught, and how, I have no idea what changes Stockstill has made.

It was a really weird year in the farm system -- all the teams were either very good, or downright awful. Frederick won the Carolina League, the GCL O's and the DSL O's won their divisions, and Bowie narrowly missed the playoffs. Norfolk, Delmarva and Aberdeen all were last place teams. The top prospects who were healthy seemed to progress pretty well, but the number of injuries, especially to pitchers, was pretty concerning.

[Lucky Jim]

I think we should at least make the effort to separate them as part of the analysis. Dave Stockstill had been with the organization much longer than his brother John as far as pinning the last 14 years on someone. There have been stories about Dave during his tenure with the organization that are not flattering. Frobby linked Tony's article which hits on a few items. John has gotten positive comments from Tony and seems to be pretty respected baseball guy. Sports Guy is correct that results matter though I not sure all the blame should be heaped on these guys (now that Crowley is in a less visible roll); And I know that SG isn't saying these guys are the sole problem as he is consistently clear where the problem starts. Organizational leadership/direction is the real problem that needs to be corrected.

I don't have a problem with securing John on a 2012 contract in a yet to be determined role so long as the next GM is able to able to choose where these resources are allocated. It may not be possible to fill all positions with external hires immediately. Some of the transition may run into next offseason as the new GM evaluates the organization.

John Stockstill has only been in charge of player development since April 2010. By then, Wieters and Matusz were already in the majors, Rowell was already in Year 3 at Frederick, Snyder was already in Year 2 at Norfolk. And, I don't think you can blame Stockstill for Hobgood's injury issues. There is no apparent problem with Machado's progress so far, and Bundy hasn't played yet. In short, I don't think John Stockstill can be judged at all on the progress of the Orioles' high draft picks. You'd have to judge him on other criteria.

Really, the issue is what has been done to improve player development since April 2010, is it working, and is any improvement sufficient to conclude that Stockstill is the best guy to continue leading that effort?

There have been some changes made under John Stockstill's regime. In 2011, each team had its own hitting coach for the first time, instead of relying on roving instructors. Richie Hebner, who had been hitting coach at Norfolk after a fairly unsuccessful run as Frederick's manager, was sacked. Brad Komminsk, who had been pretty successful as Bowie's manager, became the new Norfolk hitting coach. Gary Kendall was promoted to be Bowie's manager. Alan Dunn, who had been the Orioles' bullpen coach under Dave Trembley, was appointed as minor league pitching coordinator, but unfortunately, he jumped ship in June to become the pitching coach at LSU. I don't know who fulfilled that function after Dunn left.

Those are some coaching personnel moves; I have no idea what changes may have been made in how the Orioles develop their minor leaguers. Tony has pointed out that John Stockstill is more aggressive than his brother in promoting players to higher levels during the season; that could be good or bad. In terms of what the players are taught, and how, I have no idea what changes Stockstill has made.

It was a really weird year in the farm system -- all the teams were either very good, or downright awful. Frederick won the Carolina League, the GCL O's and the DSL O's won their divisions, and Bowie narrowly missed the playoffs. Norfolk, Delmarva and Aberdeen all were last place teams. The top prospects who were healthy seemed to progress pretty well, but the number of injuries, especially to pitchers, was pretty concerning.

These are very good posts.

[TiredofLosing20]

his hiring and advancement were under AM, not PA (as with his brother).

I thought JS was hired in 2005? That would have been before AM. He oversaw the international effort until 2010, I haven't seen any results from his time in that position (which may not be his fault). I don't think he has had enough time for us to evaluate his performance in his new position.

Truthfully, I am not worked up about this. Its a year. I have a feeling that JS is the least of our worries but I think he has been part of the losing long enough to at least question whether he is part of the problem.